8. Robotics, Women & The Future - A Talk With Greet Van de Perre (Brubotics) & Franziska Kirstein (Blue Ocean Robotics)

Listen, and get insights into Robotics, Women & The Future in this talk with Greet Van de Perre, Postdoctoral Researcher at Brubotics - Human Robotics Research Centre at VUB, and Franziska Kirstein, Senior Scientific Domain Lead at Blue Ocean Robotics. We talk about how robotics helps to solve problems, Greet's and Franziska's journey into robotics, empowering more women to study and choose a career in this field, and the future of robotics.

Podcast Partner

• FARI - AI for the Common Good Institute

Guests Info

• Dr. ir. Greet van de Perre (Brubotics)
• Franziska Kirstein (Blue Ocean Robotics)

Organizations

• Brubotics - Human Robotics Research Centre at VUB
• Blue Ocean Robotics

Network

• Women in Robotics

Mentoring
Mentoring Program - Women in Big Data

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Mentoring Program - Women in Big Data
Mentoring is essential to success at every stage of a women’s career, both as a mentee and mentor. The many WiBD mentoring programs are open to WiBD members and cover opportunities for junior, mid-career, and senior women in technology. Not yet a member? No worries. By joining a mentoring program, you automatically become a WiBD member. Both membership and mentoring are free of charge.

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Transcript

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Note: Podcast transcription edited to improve readability.

Intro  00:03
Hello, welcome to the Women in Big Data Brussels Podcast, where we talk about big data topics with diversity and inclusiveness in mind. We do this to inspire you and to connect, engage, grow, and champion the success of women in big data. The aim of this podcast is to reveal to you what you can do with big data, how organizations and societies use it, and the potential of big data to create a better future for everyone.

Franziska Kirstein  00:31
All robots kind of have a purpose, or most of them, if they are developed in a good way, that's supposed to help us. And we need to remember that they are. So it's not like in the movies where robots are taking over the world. It's we are working together with them to help us with the challenges of the future.

Desiree Timmermans  00:53
Welcome, Greet, Franziska to this podcast. We are going to talk about Robotics, Women, and the Future. So Greet, let's start: what is robotics, and what can we do with it?

Greet Van de Perre  01:37
Well, robots come in different sizes and shapes. But the main idea is that robots can assist humans by performing specific tasks. And first, robots were industrial robots that are still used, for example, in the manufacturing industry to make cars. They can be used to perform heavy tasks and repetitive tasks. But we can also see very different types of robots next to these industrial robots. For example, in robotics, we focus on human-centered robotics that aims to provide robotic technologies to improve the living conditions, or the working conditions, of humans. And here, we focus on different applications. So, we go from rehabilitation robotics to active prosthesis, over social robotics and collaborative robots for the industry. And then, of course, the exact appearance and functionalities of the robots depend on the specific application.

Desiree Timmermans  02:34
I absolutely understand that. And Franziska, do you want to add something? Or do you have an interesting example?

Franziska Kirstein  02:40
I think the most important pride is that robots have been designed to help humans and assist humans. And that's also something at Blue Ocean Robotics that we are very much concerned with. So developing robotic solutions for humans to increase quality of life, to make life easier.

We have different robots in health care service, professional service robots: one for rehabilitation, one for telepresence working - so remote and hybrid work -, and another robot that is disinfecting in hospitals. So the focus here is really on helping humans. And especially together with the end users designing robots that can help them and that makes sense in the applications.

Desiree Timmermans  03:25
And are you now working on a specific project that is interesting to share with the listeners?

Franziska Kirstein  03:31
My favorite robot is the patient lifting robot. So it's called a patient transfer rehabilitation robot. And it's a robot that helps in the hospital- and healthcare setting, and nurses and healthcare professionals to transport and lift patients and support them during the rotation. And I think that is just a robot that will have a big impact, especially because our nation is getting older, and we need to support them. And we'll have issues finding resources and personnel and health care. So that's where robots can really make a difference.

Desiree Timmermans  04:09
That's a nice application. I absolutely agree with you. And you Greet, do you have an interesting example?

Greet Van de Perre  04:15
Well, actually, yes. We also have some related topics where we work on. Indeed, we can see that the population is getting older. And we're also working on technologies for that. Closely related is our work around rehabilitation robots, for example. Because we can also see that people are getting older, but also younger people can have disabilities, motor disabilities, or, for example, patients that had a stroke require lots of therapy. And we can see that the workload of the therapists is quite high.

And we're also working on rehabilitation robots. We want to provide a system, a robot, that can help therapists in providing this therapy. And it's beneficial for the therapist self but also the patients. Because on the one hand, these robotic technologies can help to decrease the physical workload of the therapist. Because it can be quite hard if you, for example, need therapy for a leg, and the therapist needs to take his leg and move it manually around. So it's quite heavy. So if the robot can assist, it's good for the therapist. But also then, in that way, because of this robotic assistance, they can provide more therapy and more sessions during one day. It also benefits the patients because there are more opportunities to get therapy. So that's a bit on the rehabilitation topic.

But like I mentioned, we also work, for example, on Cobots for the industry. And here, we want to improve the working conditions of operators. And this can be on both the cognitive- and the physical level. Also, here, you can see that people have to work longer. It's not always easy for older people to keep performing the same tasks, both regarding their physics, because sometimes heavy tasks are demanded in the industry. But also, the cognitive aspects can decrease a bit when you get older. So sometimes, it can be difficult to keep on being flexible and adapting to new needs and tasks in your work environment. And so here, collaborative robotics can help as well.

Desiree Timmermans  06:13
How does it help me?

Greet Van de Perre  06:14
Collaborative robots are designed to work together with humans. So the idea is that we merge the strengths of both. So robots can be very precise and can handle heavy loads. But humans can do different things very good: we are very flexible, we can adapt to new situations, and we are very good at problem-solving. So the idea of collaborative robots is to merge those things and work together to perform a task. And as such, for example, if you have a very complex piece that you need to assemble in industry, then the robot can assist the human. For example, take over a part of the physical load so that it can take this object, and then the human can perform tasks on these objects so that they work together. But the robot can also, for example, instruct the operator. For example, the robot indicates: okay, now you should do this task, and you need these tools, or you need to go to that location. So he can also give cognitive support to the human.

And what we also work on is improving the ergonomics through collaborative robotics. So, by programming and controlling the robot properly, we can try to improve the posture of a worker because we can see that there are many musculoskeletal disorders for operators. And so by actually using the robots by programming it - that it takes a specific posture - the posture of the human can improve as well. Those are all different types of aspects in which collaborative robots can improve the working conditions of operators in the industry.

Franziska Kirstein  07:50
I think in that respect, talking about women, robots also allow women to enter new domains because they do take over very straining tasks and very dangerous jobs. And those domains were usually more occupied by men. But robots give women the possibility to enter those jobs in manufacturing, construction, agriculture, but also healthcare. And to work longer in those jobs as well that they are interested in.

Desiree Timmermans  08:20
And Franziska, if I think about healthcare, are there also robotics that have a kind of preventing task? For instance, if we talk about an older population, people often start falling. So, is there something already available that robotics can help to prevent it?

Franziska Kirstein  08:36
I think there are many technologies generally that can help with that and robots that can support it. Right now, people would like to stay longer in their homes. So there are a lot of ideas. I don't think there's really a commercial product yet that can help people or a robot that stays with people in their homes. So it's all more on research level and testing level. But I'm pretty sure that soon we'll be able to stay longer in our homes and get help from robots.

We have some projects where we test our telepresence robots. So those are robots where you can basically login into the robot. It's at another place than you are. And login to the robot and drive around and talk with people, just like a remote call. But much more interactive, and you're much more in the environment. And having those robots - especially with our generations - where families are spread out over different parts of the world - can really connect people. And it can also help to monitor older adults unobtrusively in their homes and give them support. And they can stay longer in their homes as well.

Desiree Timmermans  09:53
That's a wonderful application. And how did you end up in the field of robotics, Franziska?

Franziska Kirstein  09:58
Good question. I think it was just a matter of being at the right time, the right place. And it was during my master's study, which was communication. So it had nothing to do with robotics, with technology. But I had a very good professor; she supported me and got me interested in the field. She was working in the field herself. And I just noticed that it is, on the one hand, very interesting. It is an opportunity for me coming from communication, to get into technology, which I was very interested in. I started from there, and I never let go and got hooked.

Desiree Timmermans  10:39
Okay, thanks for that. And Greet, how did you end up in the field of robotics?

Greet Van de Perre  10:44
I studied Electromechanical Engineering at VUB in Brussels. And already during my studies, I knew I wanted to do a Ph.D., I wanted to dive into research. And during my last year of studying, I talked to different professors from different research groups to see which topic would fit me the best. And at that time, the robotics research group was working on social robotics. They just designed a new social robot Probo. And they tested if these robots could be an added value in therapies for children with an autism spectrum disorder. So, they investigated if using these robots could improve their social skills and learning of new skills. And so when I heard about that, I was immediately interested in it. Because the combination of this challenging technology and then the social relevance of the application was really appealing to me: that's what triggered me to dive into the field of robotics.

I focused during my Ph.D. on social robotics. So I also developed a new robot, a new social robot. And I studied how we can generate effectively gestures for robots. Because if we want these social robots to help us and assist us in our daily lives, we are going to communicate as naturally as possible. And I think Franziska knows a lot of these, as a communication expert. So in my Ph.D., I focused on generating gestures for this type of social robot. And then, after obtaining my Ph.D., I refocused a bit on collaborative robots for industry. Because here, it's also a very interesting field with very nice applications. And we also have these societal impacts but also impact in the industry. So the aspect of improving living conditions and working conditions. I still have these nice applications, but also the challenging technology. The field of robotics is very interesting in different aspects, of course.

Desiree Timmermans  12:45
I understand.

Franziska Kirstein  12:47
And I just wanted to say it's so important to do this work. And also to look ahead and see how we can communicate in the best way with robots. And what subtle changes in the communications aspects, like you say in the gestures, how that influence our interaction with robots. And that was something that in my studies - and research a little bit after my studies - also I was very interested in. What I was a little bit unsettled with was that it doesn't get out so quickly. So it will take a long time for research until it gets out and is applied. And that was something that I really liked going into the industry: to see actually how the decisions you're making, and when you design the robots, how that then is applied and has an impact out in the world. But still, the research basis is so important. Even for industry, we make use of that a lot. And in my work, where we collaborate with academia and universities, I can see that even more: that research is so important to get new and good robots out in the real world.

Desiree Timmermans  14:00
understand. And when you talk about jesters and robots, I'm always thinking about the Boston robot, who first couple of years ago could barely walk and who is now jumping and making flips, and etc.

Greet Van de Perre  14:14
Like I said, in my PhD, so I worked on social robotics. And because we want to interact on the social levels together with these robots, and we want them to work in our daily environments. This actually has specific implications, indeed, on the design, because we want these robots to use our tools and to be able to pick up things for example, or if we want them to move around in our homes, they have to be able to take the stairs, so they cannot have wheels, but they need to have legs. So all these things actually have implications on the designs and that's why most social robots look like a human. So most social robots are humanoid robots, because of these requirements. And also, like I mentioned before, we want to communicate Naturally with These robots. They need to be able to speak, they need to be able to understand gestures, but also to use gestures itself. And so therefore, we can see that, again, these robots have arms. Like, for example, the robot that you mentioned, looks like a human. But they're also a very other types of robots. And the robot where I worked on during my PhD design, because actually the probo project robot robot, which looks actually a bit like an elephant, it's a green character with arms and little feet, it has a big trunk. It's an imaginary character, actually. And so the robot that I developed them during my PhD, was the little brother of that robot. So that was, of course, not a humanoid robot, but then more based on an imaginary animal like character. And we can see lots of other social robots that have similar appearances. For example, the robot now, or robot pepper are very famous robots, which are already used in hospitals, they have been used to investigate the effects or therapies with also children with autism, but also for elderly, for example, to stimulate them to do exercises, or, for example, or people with Alzheimer to see what the influence can be. We saw that, for example, therapies with animals can have benefits, but of course, animals in hospital Yeah, in these kinds of environments, this is not always easy. And so therefore, maybe it's possible to use robots to see can we have a similar effect? Yes or no, that was the work in social robotics where I was involved in, during my PhD.

Desiree Timmermans  16:34
And Pepper also looks very friendly.

Greet Van de Perre  16:37
Yes, the appearance of the robot is very, very important. It's very good that you raise this because robotics is a very multidisciplinary field. So we cannot just build robots with only engineers say it's not possible. So we need input from many other fields. For example, psychologists, sociologists, physiotherapists, for rehabilitation robotics, we need to work together in a very multidisciplinary team, because many aspects are important. The appearance is very important for acceptance, we have to study, for example, if we put a collaborative robots in industry, are people willing to work with it? Do they trust robots? So those aspects are all very, very important to study?

Desiree Timmermans  17:20
I can understand and does that sound familiar to you, Franziska?

Franziska Kirstein  17:24
Yes, definitely. And I can say from our team at Blue Ocean Robotics, and we have a very multidisciplinary team also, and always make sure that we work closely together with the end users to actually develop the robot with them. And that's definitely very important to have this diversity. Also, when you develop robots.

Desiree Timmermans  17:44
If you want to empower more women to choose for robotics, what needs to be done Franziska?

Franziska Kirstein  17:52
I think it definitely getting more women interested in the education in the educational aspects and getting them interested in robotics. And because it is a multidisciplinary field, it should include a lot of women also from other disciplines. And that's very important, because you can only design and develop robots for a broad target audience, if you have the developers of the same audience in your team. So women will notice things that men maybe don't and testing robots on a diverse set of people is very important.

Desiree Timmermans  18:36
Well, that's good to know. And actually, what you're saying, If I listened well is that the education is really important. Make sure that women are interested. And then I suppose you are referring to the STEM education also.

Franziska Kirstein  18:50
Exactly. Yeah. And I actually read that robots can also helped for the STEM education to get girls interested in robotics, that's also a positive aspect, introducing them early enough to robotics, getting them interested and making sure that women are increasing in that domain as well.

Desiree Timmermans  19:10
Greet, if you look at empowering women into the field of robotics, what would you advise of what is your experience are related to the do's and the don'ts?

Greet Van de Perre  19:19
I agree completely with what Francesca said, that it's very important to have diversity in your team for generating useful solutions, of course, to get back to your question on my personal experience, so I have to say that I think it mainly depends on the environment where you study in or where you work in. At the university. They pay lots of attention to try to reach gender equality. And there are lots of initiatives to try to reach this. I was very lucky with my thesis advisor feel very lucky with my advisor, because he's somebody with the correct mindset and he gives women and male the same opportunities. But of course if you work you In an environment where this is not the case, and where you have close colleagues, who still have this archaic way of thinking that men are better than women, then of course, it's much more difficult to earn your rightful spots in your team. So I think, therefore, it's important to keep on stimulating girls to choose an education in technology in STEM, but also to educate the men properly, to get rid of all this prejudice and to indeed converge towards this gender equality. But I think we already did a good job. And we already came a long way. And there's already lots of improvements, we can see it, there are women choosing for careers in technology in engineering, and specifically also in robotics. But of course, we need to keep on stimulating it, it's important to keep having attention on it. Of course, it's not always easy to exactly know how to do this, and which initiatives can be good, and which not. So that's still a difficult task, I think, to make sure that women and men can get same opportunities. So I think, like I said, We're doing good. But we have to keep on doing this and keep on paying attention on it.

Franziska Kirstein  21:15
I think supporting each other women supporting each other, but also men who notice things speaking out loud and supporting each other is very important. And because we have multidisciplinary field, we also have actually a lot of conscious getting together and a lot of cultures, where there's a different perspective on the role of women at the workplace in society. And that's why it's so important to speak about it. Because when those different cultures come together, and someone doesn't feel like they've been treated, whether it's now a man or a woman, not fairly, I think the only way to make a change is to speak about it and make the others aware about that, because no one can learn if they are not aware.

Desiree Timmermans  22:00
Okay, and if we look at the future of robotics, what does it look like?

Greet Van de Perre  22:05
It's, of course difficult to predict the future. But we can look at the trends that we see already. Now, initially, robots are only found in industry where they performed and are still performing dangerous tasks. For example, heavy tasks, precise tasks. But these type of machines, these type of robots are very dangerous. So they are kept in cages. So no people are allowed to when these robots are moving. And when people come too close, they shut down for safety reasons. But we can see that now robots are coming closer and closer to humans are likely discussed, we now have the collaborative robots that are aimed to work physically together with humans. We do research on social robots rehabilitation robots. So there we really have the human in the centre together with these robots. So we got more and more towards this human centred robotics, where we have to pay more attention on safety aspects and things like that. So we can see that robots are gradually coming closer in our daily lives. Like, for example, we can see already the vacuum cleaner robots, or the robots that move you around outside, for example, we can already see robots for these specific applications. And I think we discussed that robots have the potential to solve many challenges in our society, like, for example, that people are getting older people have to work longer. There are lots of healthcare issues. We need more therapists to support patients, things like that. But also in industry, as people have to work longer, they can benefit from some more support. So I think robotics has lots of potential in different applications in different fields. So I think for sure, in the future, we will see more and more real applications popping up.

Desiree Timmermans  23:51
Well, I'm excited about it. And you Francisca. How do you see the future of robotics? So what can we expect?

Franziska Kirstein  23:57
I definitely agree, we're going to get closer to robots, we're going to collaborate more with robots, and they are going to take some of the tasks that we are currently doing, and hopefully increasing the quality of our lives, though, if everyone is taken care of considering how robots should be developed and how they are used in the real world, I think that will be the case we definitely need to remember like there are a lot of robots that are jumping. Yes, this is entertaining. Yes, yes, very entertaining. But we also need to remember that they all have a purpose. So also, those robots are supposed to help us in scenarios like rescue scenarios after an environmental disasters or something like this. So all robots kind of have a purpose or most of them if they are developed in a good way that's supposed to help us and we need to remember that they are tools. So it's not like in the movies where robots are taking over the world. It's We are working together with them to help us with the challenges of the future. They are tools that covers some of the tasks that we maybe don't want to do that are not good for our health, and that are also necessary because we don't have the resources in the future. So I think that's important to remember.

Desiree Timmermans  25:20
So, the future is more robotics for more applications at home, but also at work, and it will help us to become better personally and professionally, which is really great, because that's what technology is: be more productive with less.

Franziska Kirstein  25:34
If it's done the right way

Desiree Timmermans  25:36
I absolutely agree. You're right, if it's done correctly.

Franziska Kirstein  25:41
And that's where research is also so important, because I think it really helps industry to show the path and to consider all the important aspects.

Desiree Timmermans  25:51
Is there anything that I didn't ask you yet that you would like to share with the listeners?

Franziska Kirstein  25:57
I think if there's other women, even from other disciplines that haven't heard about robotics so far, and they are interested in getting into into that there are a lot of places to go to to get informed universities or innovation hubs are, there's also a lot of networks for women in robotics, for example.

Desiree Timmermans  26:18
it's a really good addition, I'll make sure that we have some links in the show notes of this episode. So thank you for that.

Greet Van de Perre  26:55
I can say that the robotics field is very interesting, spirit challenging, and there's a lot of nice applications. So I think as a woman, as a girl, if you're interested in technology, if you're interested in engineering, don't hesitate to go for it. I would stimulate everybody to go for an education and over a career in technology and in robotics in specific because I think if you're interested in something, if you're passionate about something, then you can be good at it, no matter what's your gender.

I absolutely agree. So, Greet, Franziska: thank you very much for joining this podcast for sharing your expertise with the listeners. I enjoyed it. I learned a lot of things. So thank you very much. Thank you.

Greet Van de Perre  27:08
Thank you.

Franziska Kirstein  27:09
Thank you. It's very exciting to be part of that.

Outro  27:13
Thanks for listening to the Women in Big Data Brussels Podcast. We appreciate it if you get in touch with us to provide your feedback or request to partner up and be a guest. You can contact us via data women@protonmail.com. You also find our contact details in the show notes. 

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